How big is the filesize on this thing?
We could try adding some Locust Hoverboards if you wanted. Problem being that right now adding any of the extra items I've been working on and compiling (Hoverboard, Airpower Planes, Ripper, modified Bio, etc) means that you need all of the files for all of them (~16 MB). Kind of a big bump in filesize, but it's not unthinkable.
However, I'm strongly considering just splitting up the pack into individual downloads, and the Locust alone is probably 1-2MB, which is easily manageable I think.
ONS-ColdSteel
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SweetTooth
Indeed. Toxic i spent a good bit of time on vent with Hornet last night. You and i should talk. Things will be so much clearer then.DW_Hornet wrote:His suggestions are good, they just arent explained why he feels a certain way well in a post. The thing is we have to focus on the larger picture of the map then just 1 small facet (or even 1 node). It takes 58 facets for a round brilliant diamond to gleam and they work in concert for that effect. Maps are the same way, there are nodes that are much easier to defend then others. Vehicle loadout, turrets, weapon lockers all contribute to it.
aslo remember my suggestions. drops your scorpions down to 12 and tanks up to 4. Plus the addition of jump pads. But like i said i can go over everything with you in more detail on vent when i have some free time later this week.DW_Hornet wrote:On the map itself there are 14 scorps, 8 benders, 2 tanks, 4 raptors, and 6 mantas. The only vehicles that arent included in this count are at the middle node which are the only paladin and cicada. 14 scorps is alot, there are nodes where you get 3 of them. To me this sounds like plenty on paper. However everyone complained about the walking hatred, which maybe have been atleast partially remedied with the dismantaling of some of the fences.
I sound like a broken record i think. I will post RC1 probally in the next few days for feedback.
Well this thread certainly got interesting with ST being clueless as usual. Shocking. In any case, I've had a run through with this map and it's looking ok for the most part to this point. Some things to consider.
1. Lockers are fine, with perhaps only the AVRIL counts being a bit much. Drop to 10 from 15 with maybe an ammo pack or two here and there.
2. Bases need some amping up in rides as they are quite weak right now. I'd add the following:
1 manta
1 paladin
1 spma (debatable but the map could probably handle it)
1 cicada
3. Speaking of the bases, there are a few problem areas here to think about. For starters the spawn points are really spread out in relation to the vehicle spawns. Adding more rides will cut down on this issue of course but even still the base is pretty open and dispersed. The manta and raptor spawn points are problems as I've seen them go unused for long periods of time as many will not notice them up where they are. Adding a jumpad from the ground level near the core dock with a landing area at the base of the turret would be a good idea. People will notice there's something up there worth investigating, get's them there faster and allows the turret to be reachable in a hurry when it's probably needed. Core is a bit too exposed as well... any chance of moving the waterfall effect slightly and adding in a small depression/cave type of area to kind of set back the core from the wide open space it is in now? Not anything really deep, just something to prevent easy core hits as soon as it is visable.
4. A few too many Scorpions for my taste, but I tend to Manta whore on maps like this one so that may just be that side of me talking. However, three spawning at a single node like I saw in a few places is a bit much so I'd take out one of them and add... hmm tough choice. Could try a Raptor perhaps.
5. I don't see any serious issues with the fences that you were so worried about. A few more gaps for both players and maybe even vehicles wouldn't be the worst idea but I like them Great work on taking out the mines as well btw - that simple change both removed a very annoying feature as well as allowed the use of a considerable amount of map space that was off-limits before.
6. The core-linked nodes are protected well, but from the wrong side really. Both nodes have cover imposed in the direct line of sight from the core they link to, making retaking them very difficult. The barn for one side is at least able to be quickly moved around. When it comes to the cover for nodes 2/5, however, we have a real problem. Those nodes are far too protected from the core side needing to retake them once they fall into enemy control. The walls of rock surrounding it in a C-shape fashion make simply getting to the node take far too long. Meanwhile, the other side trying to use it to open up the enemies core for attack has a clear run from any number of nearby nodes that they control while the core based team has to make a long and out of the way trek just to get there.
Solution: one or more access pathways need to be cut or placed by removing terrain to allow for easier entrance from the core direction. First choice for me would be at the midpoint of both of the "arms" of this circular rock enclosure that surrounds the node. Need to be big enough for vehicles as well. An alternative solution if this proves to be too hard or impossible for technical reasons would be a few jumpads from the base of the rock walls to up on top of these same rocks. Allows footsoldiers at least to bypass the long pathways around the rock walls and forces the attacking team to defend from a completely different direction. And truthfully these pads should probably be added even if you can make the first solution of cutting pathways work. Those two nodes need to be attackable from many different directions.
Also should probably be jumpads from the core (around the node-post sign thing) to at least the halfway point of the distance between the core and those nodes. They are a bit too far away at the moment really to make the trip there when your core is open quick enough.
7. Center node is a bit cramped in terms of fighting room, and I don't care for the spawns. I'd replace them with a single tank. That would probably not be unbalancing as it'd take a well supporting team for the tank to survive for long in an around what is sure to be a heavily contested node.
8. Seemed to be quite a few single pickups on this one (healthpacks). I don't know if it will be a problem yet but it's something to look at in testing once it gets online as the channel count may be a bit high.
9. Bots are broken in the same fashion as they were with ConcealedRespite2. They just run back and forth in place and never make it out to any of the nodes. Not critical to fix this for 32p but it should still be looked into.
That's all for now I think. Good work to this point on the map.
1. Lockers are fine, with perhaps only the AVRIL counts being a bit much. Drop to 10 from 15 with maybe an ammo pack or two here and there.
2. Bases need some amping up in rides as they are quite weak right now. I'd add the following:
1 manta
1 paladin
1 spma (debatable but the map could probably handle it)
1 cicada
3. Speaking of the bases, there are a few problem areas here to think about. For starters the spawn points are really spread out in relation to the vehicle spawns. Adding more rides will cut down on this issue of course but even still the base is pretty open and dispersed. The manta and raptor spawn points are problems as I've seen them go unused for long periods of time as many will not notice them up where they are. Adding a jumpad from the ground level near the core dock with a landing area at the base of the turret would be a good idea. People will notice there's something up there worth investigating, get's them there faster and allows the turret to be reachable in a hurry when it's probably needed. Core is a bit too exposed as well... any chance of moving the waterfall effect slightly and adding in a small depression/cave type of area to kind of set back the core from the wide open space it is in now? Not anything really deep, just something to prevent easy core hits as soon as it is visable.
4. A few too many Scorpions for my taste, but I tend to Manta whore on maps like this one so that may just be that side of me talking. However, three spawning at a single node like I saw in a few places is a bit much so I'd take out one of them and add... hmm tough choice. Could try a Raptor perhaps.
5. I don't see any serious issues with the fences that you were so worried about. A few more gaps for both players and maybe even vehicles wouldn't be the worst idea but I like them Great work on taking out the mines as well btw - that simple change both removed a very annoying feature as well as allowed the use of a considerable amount of map space that was off-limits before.
6. The core-linked nodes are protected well, but from the wrong side really. Both nodes have cover imposed in the direct line of sight from the core they link to, making retaking them very difficult. The barn for one side is at least able to be quickly moved around. When it comes to the cover for nodes 2/5, however, we have a real problem. Those nodes are far too protected from the core side needing to retake them once they fall into enemy control. The walls of rock surrounding it in a C-shape fashion make simply getting to the node take far too long. Meanwhile, the other side trying to use it to open up the enemies core for attack has a clear run from any number of nearby nodes that they control while the core based team has to make a long and out of the way trek just to get there.
Solution: one or more access pathways need to be cut or placed by removing terrain to allow for easier entrance from the core direction. First choice for me would be at the midpoint of both of the "arms" of this circular rock enclosure that surrounds the node. Need to be big enough for vehicles as well. An alternative solution if this proves to be too hard or impossible for technical reasons would be a few jumpads from the base of the rock walls to up on top of these same rocks. Allows footsoldiers at least to bypass the long pathways around the rock walls and forces the attacking team to defend from a completely different direction. And truthfully these pads should probably be added even if you can make the first solution of cutting pathways work. Those two nodes need to be attackable from many different directions.
Also should probably be jumpads from the core (around the node-post sign thing) to at least the halfway point of the distance between the core and those nodes. They are a bit too far away at the moment really to make the trip there when your core is open quick enough.
7. Center node is a bit cramped in terms of fighting room, and I don't care for the spawns. I'd replace them with a single tank. That would probably not be unbalancing as it'd take a well supporting team for the tank to survive for long in an around what is sure to be a heavily contested node.
8. Seemed to be quite a few single pickups on this one (healthpacks). I don't know if it will be a problem yet but it's something to look at in testing once it gets online as the channel count may be a bit high.
9. Bots are broken in the same fashion as they were with ConcealedRespite2. They just run back and forth in place and never make it out to any of the nodes. Not critical to fix this for 32p but it should still be looked into.
That's all for now I think. Good work to this point on the map.
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SweetTooth
and you are a jackass. shocking!!! if i am clueless you must be down right mentally handicapped. sorry but the truth hurts dont it? (im evil. i know)Urtho wrote:Well this thread certainly got interesting with ST being clueless as usual. Shocking.
some of your suggestions are good but most of them i already talked to Hornet about last night on vent.
Urtho the map contains 15 health packs around the map, atleast the editor is claiming that. Ill do some research into channel count, but i have noticed that chainisle gets to 240 channels when there are stuttering issues. From what i recall those are most attributed to the amount of flak that both sides throw.I dont think that will be a problem here.
The fact that we should have an SPMA has been talked about, if you guys arent worried about the sat bug then ill place it. However i think placeing it at the core is a bad idea, but thats just me. Extra cicada im not to thrilled about, although with the shock count it may not be so bad. A Paladin at the core from my experiance with Dria-Gorz is not a good idea. People just throw the shield up when ever they see a vehicle and they cant get core hits. Thats just not good gameplay. I dont see a problem with an extra manta.
The jumpads was something we talked about, ST mentioned placeing them at the little sign posts. Im not crazy about it personally, but hell if it kills makeing the core two powerful with vehicles than im all aboard.
The fact that we should have an SPMA has been talked about, if you guys arent worried about the sat bug then ill place it. However i think placeing it at the core is a bad idea, but thats just me. Extra cicada im not to thrilled about, although with the shock count it may not be so bad. A Paladin at the core from my experiance with Dria-Gorz is not a good idea. People just throw the shield up when ever they see a vehicle and they cant get core hits. Thats just not good gameplay. I dont see a problem with an extra manta.
The jumpads was something we talked about, ST mentioned placeing them at the little sign posts. Im not crazy about it personally, but hell if it kills makeing the core two powerful with vehicles than im all aboard.
There's a solution for every problem. If you're worried about the paladin shielding the core excessively, simply remove a plank or three on the dock holding the core so a pally can't actually reach the core itself. I think this is a non-issue frankly as even if someone tries this on the current version of the map a Paladin or its shield is still not going to last for long when you get multiple attackers from both the air and ground like you're sure to get when a core opens up.DW_Hornet wrote:The fact that we should have an SPMA has been talked about, if you guys arent worried about the sat bug then ill place it. However i think placeing it at the core is a bad idea, but thats just me. Extra cicada im not to thrilled about, although with the shock count it may not be so bad. A Paladin at the core from my experiance with Dria-Gorz is not a good idea. People just throw the shield up when ever they see a vehicle and they cant get core hits. Thats just not good gameplay. I dont see a problem with an extra manta.
The SPMA being a buggy vehicle is indeed annoying but if we let that dictate things we'll never use them on any map. Yes it is a problem when the bug happens but since that can happen anywhere and anytime I say it's just part of the deal and let the chips fall where they may. I can certainly see it being a handy ride to have when placed at the core given all the vertical blocking zones in use right now. The ability to shoot in an arcing path over these blockages would be very useful.
Cicada at the core is part of the "load the bases with power to make comebacks possible" philosophy. When pushed back to a core, a team needs something that is both powerful and fast in order to give them a chance to knock down a node that is opening up their core. Given all the hitscan weapons as well as AVRILs that will be flying on this map I don't think this will be a problem. But hey, that's what beta play testing is for right?
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SweetTooth
making a comeback is not about having all the powerful vehicles and weapons at your base/at your disposal. comebacks occur due to a team effort and the proper management of resources. the best took for a comeback is AMP. put an amp in base possibly near the raptor so people get the point that amped raptor = pwnage.Urtho wrote: Cicada at the core is part of the "load the bases with power to make comebacks possible" philosophy. When pushed back to a core, a team needs something that is both powerful and fast in order to give them a chance to knock down a node that is opening up their core. Given all the hitscan weapons as well as AVRILs that will be flying on this map I don't think this will be a problem. But hey, that's what beta play testing is for right?
I was talking to sabotage earlier today and i realized one of the issues i see with all of these 32 player maps. what people try to do is simply place more vehicles and more ammo/weapons and call it 32 man. well that is a horrible philosophy. sure the number of vheicles must be relative to the number of players but there is such thing as overkill. you cannot expect everyone to have a vehicle . there are currently 36 vehicles on the map. that is more than enough for every single player to have a vehicle. when you get to that point you have vehicle spam. vehicles everywhere and you turn it into a demolition derby. in my experience playing ONS from 3v3 to 16v16 having more vehicles than players only works with smaller numbers. you have to have SOME people on foot in 16v16 play. This of course applies to this map because of its relative size. if the map were bigger then the number of vehicles would be alright. but given the terrain around the nodes and the number of vehicles it will look like a used car lot around every node.
Scorps account for 38.9% (14/36) of the vehicles on the map. Its pretty obvious that it needs to be lowered. Although you are correct ST there is more then enough vehicles to go around scorpians are more of a last resort if im going hunting for a ride. Infact i should just goto the editor and delete any place where i see more then one spawn.
There will be SPMA available. Where is a good question, and how im going to cover the core is a better one.
BTW wail thanks for the offer but i dislike custom content. Its not that i think UT got everything right, its not appealing to me to have so much variation with in the same game. Maybe its all the other stuff thats on the server thats cuaseing me to feel this way. Im waiting for a pill on television to cure my gorzophobia.
There will be SPMA available. Where is a good question, and how im going to cover the core is a better one.
BTW wail thanks for the offer but i dislike custom content. Its not that i think UT got everything right, its not appealing to me to have so much variation with in the same game. Maybe its all the other stuff thats on the server thats cuaseing me to feel this way. Im waiting for a pill on television to cure my gorzophobia.
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SweetTooth
hornet:
shielding the core is relatively easy actually. message me on xfire later tonight and we can talk on vent about it. same goes for placement of the SPMA.
shielding the core is relatively easy actually. message me on xfire later tonight and we can talk on vent about it. same goes for placement of the SPMA.
Legend.