Lets talk Health Care/Why we are going to kill old people.

[DW_Mobius]

Belgium has +- 11mil people.

Now I just found out that Belgium has more debt than the USA. http://antwerp.wordpress.com/2008/11/14 ... t-figures/


But the people dont have to worry about America's debt, just be happy that Obama is giving health-care to the needy. Even if it rises the taxes slightly, its still beter than paying 400$ a person (of what I read in this topic)

Belgiums national debt is higher PER citizen. i.e. 28,125 EURO's per 10million citizens.
The US has 300 million citizens at 26,047 EURO's apiece. So if you do the math, America has ~30 times the national debt it total. You already have nationalized healthcare, therefor you can already see the results of it Belgium. In the next 10 years, socialized health care is predicted to have a major role in tripling our national debt. i.e. ~75,000 EURO's apiece.

Another issue is the massive irreversable effect that this will have on our current medical system. Once it goes through there may be no going back.

Medicare as it is, pays doctors much less than insurance. So much less that many doctors have a limit to how many Medicare patients they take. It's not just a Republican thing.

Of all the post's I've seen comparing our current system to a socialized system, (which would actually be quite a few now, I've been through about 6-7 websites of them,) the vast majority of users WISH they had our system. I actually found a forum of the impact that it would have on Canadians; It's a bit old but, I don't see the basic facts changing... "At least 188 neurosurgery patients and 421 emergency cardiac patients have been sent to the United States from Ontario since the 2003-2004 fiscal year to Feb. 21 this year. Add to that 25 women with high-risk pregnancies sent south of the border in 2007."

Shouldn't this be in the locker room btw?

[DW_Bomzin]

Shouldn't this be in the locker room btw?

No because we have had no other interest in the locker room and it would just be between clanies at this point .

So what it boiles down to over the last couple posts is we can spend our money to kill people in other countries or take care of our own ? I vote for world peace . :banana:


I talked to a lady today , a hard right winger . Cost control is what alot of this boiles down to. when she was a youngster she had polio , say 50 years ago . Devastating disease in the day and still . The interesting point she made , her family not having health insurance at the time, after a week and a half in the hospital they came home with a $80 dollar bill .

The cost of schooling needs to be gotten under control so we don't have med students coming out with 500K in bills to pay for . Liability insurance needs to be capped and at the same time instead of suing the butts off bad doctors leaving them to their practice and to pass along those high insurance premiums to the mass's . We need to fire their butts. When was the last time you heard of a doctor being fired for incompetence and you can't tell me there are none. The costs of medical supplies is out of hand .

You talk about the government paying for the 400 screw . The inflated costs to our medical industry is rampant . Anyone for some $120 soap , on sale now . Soap. The hospital in turn is going to turn around and charge you $30 a squirt if your lucky.

The problems with our health care system run deep .Alot of things should be fixed and alot of the problems we have are because of the insurance industry . Everyone loves to bilk the insurance companies , much like they do the government.

The National Debt has continued to increase an average of $3.90 billion per day since September 28, 2007!

We really need to quite killing our neighbors . Going back to the Clinton years we were looking pretty sweet . Thanks to the past administration we are in the mess we are in . The current administration is not helping matters on the national debt front but once again I would rather spend money taking care of our own then fighting unjust wars and yes I firmly believe there never were any WMD that were hidden from us . It was a war that was perpetuated by the past administration but thats a whole other topic .

Maybe Savage is right , maybe just do away with insurance companies all together make everyone pay out of pocket and the system will fix itself , really make the health industry compete like they should in a capitalist society .

[Savage]

Debt! What a concept, debt. I could go on for hours but I'm going to keep it simple, f#@$ debt! Debt is accumulated by interests, interests imposed by the bank. The more counterfeit money we produced, the more interest. The more interest, the more debt because how can you pay interest on money pulled from the printing press? You can't so you acumulate debt. Debt can only be paid by making more money but making more money means more interests resulting in... MORE DEBT! It is a scam that results in slavery! I'll let others speak for me:


"And I sincerely believe, with you, that banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies; and that the principle of spending money to be paid by posterity, under the name of funding, is but swindling futurity on a large scale." --Thomas Jefferson

"Gentlemen, I have had men watching you for a long time and I am convinced that you have used the funds of the bank to speculate in the breadstuffs of the country. When you won, you divided the profits amongst you, and when you lost, you charged it to the bank. You tell me that if I take the deposits from the bank and annul its charter, I shall ruin ten thousand families. That may be true, gentlemen, but that is your sin! Should I let you go on, you will ruin fifty thousand families, and that would be my sin! You are a den of vipers and thieves." -- Andrew Jackson

"I see in the near future a crisis approaching that unnerves me and causes me to tremble for the safety of my country; corporations have been enthroned, an era of corruption in High Places will follow, and the Money Power of the Country will endeavor to prolong its reign by working upon the prejudices of the People, until the wealth is aggregated in a few hands, and the Republic is destroyed. I feel at this moment more anxiety for the safety of my country than ever before, even in the midst of war" -- Abraham Lincoln

"History records that the money changers have used every form of abuse, intrigue, deceit, and violent means possible to maintain their control over governments by controlling the money and its issuance." -- James Madison

"All the perplexities, confusion and distress in America arise not from defects in their Constitution or Confederation, nor from want of honor or virtue, so much as downright ignorance of the nature of coin, credit, and circulation." -- John Adams

Did you know their is no law stating you must pay taxes... Yup! It is an disproportionate tax, illegal tax!

[DW_Damaged]

Going back to the Clinton years we were looking pretty sweet.

Wasn't it the Clinton administration that started the entire everyone should own a home program which in turn caused the collapse of the housing and banking industry?

I agree that insurance companies are part of the problem and the Doctors who are scared of malpractice have to cover there ass by ordering a battery of tests to ensure they don't make a mistake. But if you really take a look at the cause of the problem it's technology. With each advancement of new machines that can do more and more in the detection of injuries, illnesses and diseases and the medication needed to fight them it has caused the entire cost of medicine to spin out of control. If a program was put in place that would provide for the cost of new technology and medicine and not cause a financial burden on society then I would be all for that. Maybe 2 less nuclear subs, pull our troops out of the current war, bring our troops home from S. Korea, tell all the countries that we give money to to F**# O** we could then offer financial compensation to those who create new medical technology and medicine, get rid of the corrupted doctors and insurance companies and lower the cost of health care for everyone.

There Problem solved!!!!

I feel so much better now.

[Savage]

Problem solved for a while but all the ideas posed thus far from both sides are only treating symptoms not the cause of our problems. I don't have all the fact and figures stored in my head like you all do but I don't need to to know we are in a crises. I personally think we should spend our money on something other than war also but the way the economy works, it would make little difference if not make things worse. We need this war to sustain our lifestyle and the government knew this. We must take from other countries to live the way we do, which I don't approve off but that is just how it is with our current economy and government in place. I don't like it but fact is as it stands now, we are screwed. Their is little we can do short of a revolution and just getting the information out there. We must get to the source instead of treating symptoms and those symptoms being the health care crises, the mortgage crises, and the wall Street crises and the massive poverty gap. The environmental crises being the death of us all but not before our economy collapses which will probably be needed to make any real change... Hell, maybe even war! It isn't a coincident this is all happening now. Many have seen this coming for tens of years. We must get to the source but until then, I'll take what I can get.

[Savage]

tell all the countries that we give money to to F**# O**

It doesn't matter how much money we give away when our money isn't worth shit anyway. We can afford to print more, paper doesn't cost much. Just chop down some more trees. We will never reimburse them anyway. When the world cashes in though, we are screwed and the government knows this so they sell their souls and our country to the banks. That is one of the reason some European countries are pissed at use. They knew our money wasn't worth shit when we took away the gold standard and they tried to cash in and we gave them pennies on the dollar. The world hates us and for good reason, we have raped and murdered the world to sustain our glamorous lifestyle. Now that the world is screwed they, the rich corporations and banks, are raping their own... Us! The poverty gap is growing along with our bullshit debt and poverty is one of the leading causes of Americas deteriorating health. Corporations have the same rights as people and then more rights than people. Power hungry banks and corporations are the problem, money is the problem. Counterfeit money with interests and debt doesn't allow for morals, integrity, or compassion, just the drive for more profits. Our problem is interests.

[Savage]

Lets take a look at interests, shall we:

Wiki on Interest

I know some didn't agree with the first ZeitGeist movie but the second dives a little deeper into the cause of our economical problems at present and dose a good job but I must admit it doesn't provide a real sane solution to the problem but a solution none the less.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5r6-o1lpJHU[/youtube]

Also check out the movie "The Corporation" sometime, it is a real eye opener and the psychopathic behaviours and mindset of the entity, corporation.

We need an honest banking system if we really need one at all.

[DW_Bomzin]

Wasn't it the Clinton administration that started the entire everyone should own a home program which in turn caused the collapse of the housing and banking industry?

No it's far more complex then that , but that's what Fox news would like you to believe. It was a large combination of things all driven by greed .
Clinton atleast had us going in the right direction. Balanced the budget and was bringing the deficit down .

I agree that insurance companies are part of the problem and the Doctors who are scared of malpractice have to cover there ass by ordering a battery of tests to ensure they don't make a mistake. But if you really take a look at the cause of the problem it's technology. With each advancement of new machines that can do more and more in the detection of injuries, illnesses and diseases and the medication needed to fight them it has caused the entire cost of medicine to spin out of control. If a program was put in place that would provide for the cost of new technology and medicine and not cause a financial burden on society then I would be all for that. Maybe 2 less nuclear subs, pull our troops out of the current war, bring our troops home from S. Korea, tell all the countries that we give money to to F**# O** we could then offer financial compensation to those who create new medical technology and medicine, get rid of the corrupted doctors and insurance companies and lower the cost of health care for everyone.

Sounds good to me .

I don't see why we are so worried about new technology anyway on the medical front , if we keep advancing and get people to live to be 150 yrs old , it's only going to cause more problems.

To Savage: I figured out how to get you fixed up , rob a bank . If you get away with it you'll be able to afford it . If you get caught they;ll fix you up anyway. Either way you'll get your butt polked per your wishes .

[DW_Damaged]

To Savage: I figured out how to get you fixed up , rob a bank . If you get away with it you'll be able to afford it . If you get caught they;ll fix you up anyway. Either way you'll get your butt polked per your wishes .

:banana: :lmao:

[Savage]

I won't be on the receiving end when I go to prison but if I was locked up for a while and I seen your pretty face in there I just might pop your cherry big boy. On a more serious note, it is all a big scam anyway. No need even debating it really. I guess that is it for me since that "getting my ass poked" is about the only real response I have received in this whole debate. Speak amongst yourselves. I suppose you can't have a serious discussion with some people.