Invasion Proposed Changes

[Inspector]

Ok, just played 16 waves on monster arena with cress and whippersnapper. All i can say is things have got silly. The classes were never the problem, the fast adren spawns and safe spots were. Of course adren masters seemed overpowered, they had fast adren spawn and double magic. Honestly the double magic does (read did) make sense, vorpal +22 was a selfish weapon.

The most fun i've had on this server has been on 1on1 mixer and spacejunk. Mixer was most fun the first time it was put on the server, me acy and a few lower levels had a great time trying to hold the small room where the lift is by blocking the lift and spamming the entrance, it was challenging and exciting. Spacejunk was fun before hiding place were found (and yes i hold my hand up to using them at times) because everyone had to work together and hold the tunnels.

Honestly i'd like to say that about the other maps but I can't because they're just dull with safe rooms and fast adren spawns.

Since the changes (sliths etc) adren masters have been seriously nerfed, adren drains in seconds and poison goes through globe. At lvl 175 i get my ass kicked so I feel sorry for the rest that are below because they must last hardly any time at all.

Essentially I am trying to say the class balances were only an issue on the maps with fast adren spawns and safe rooms, other imbalances tended to be though the poor use of stat points. I'm not claiming my builds for medic or adren are perfect by any means but i've started again and again to get it right. I believe the adren and safe rooms are there through a general feeling the map must be beatable by low levels. Perhaps it's impossible to have a complete balance that lets low levels play as much as higher levels. A suggestion is to raise the starting level, therefore removing the need to have the dull waves or the incredibly easy maps.

Thoughts?

I managed to get a few games in today and basically almost the entire server either switched to their medic account or started a new one. Adren masters can't take the the energy sliths on like other monsters. With the exception of titan rocks, medics are near invincible (provided a low level is on). I play a lvl 175 adren master and 151 medic, the medic kicks the adren masters ass. WM i only got up to lvl 60 something to try out loaded weapons and personally i just couldn't be bothered to spend the time getting db etc up so I can't speak personally for wm's.

I do agree medics top out early but neo and brain still manage to kick ass.

I do believe that if changes are going to be made then something as to stay the same. It's like a science experiment where you change two variables at the same time, you'll never know what's causing an imbalance or what it is that needs to be tweaked.

I agree with everything you've said rob. I don't see too much of a problem with the classes (if it ain't broke, don't fix it) as I do the maps. Energy Sliths crush any AM that steps outside for the slightest moment unless you have decent DR, (something most AM don't have until much later levels) and even then they don't last long. You have to really keep on your toes to stay alive. I feel most of the monster changes to the server has been put in to prevent the use of a Globe, and that's what keeps me alive when it gets tough. Medics have healing weapons & high DR, and WMs have vampirism and DB. I have energy sliths and waillords with highly adren draining abilities knocking on my door.

If we had monsters that could inhibit a medic's ability to heal, or a WM's vampirism then we might as well not bother buying a class and max DB, DR, quickfoot, etc. AM have an artifact that a majority of the monsters are geared toward removing the ability to use it. Right now, it makes me feel that the "overpowered adren masters" are getting the short end of the stick. I had more fun playing when the globe was accidentally taken out then I did fighting energy sliths. (the waillords were hard enough)

The fact of the matter is someone, some how, will in some way have an advantage over another.

Disclaimer: I'm not bashing any classes, or bitching that AM's have been changed. I'm just reflecting my experiences with the recent additions, and how I see the other classes compare to mine. :compress:

As for some of the previous suggestions, I don't think artifact retention would be a great idea. Might as well give everyone else loaded weapons. Nor do I think WM should have the ability to +1 their weapons, rather have them spawn with more desired weapons (ex: spawning with a set of weapons with protection, vampiric, healing, etc instead of spawning with 3 sturdy, a force, and plain.) Is that in any way possible? I also like the idea of berserk for WM. Give their abilities a boost when they are say, 25% health or less? I'll post some more ideas a bit later after class.

[d2frob]

I'd just like to add my points are all based on actualy gameplay (i.e I actually tried play with my 151 medic and 175 adren) hence they are the only classes I can reliable suggest tweaks too. WM i have only played up to level 60 something and honestly i thought they sucked because who needs loaded weapons when you have weapon lockers everywhere?

Balance is relative and the maps are screwing it up. (no offence to the map makers of course but just don't expect any sort of balance with fast adren spawns, totally safe rooms and weapon lockers!)

:cheers: Keep mashing!

PS, serious suggestion (but not a permenant one) but how about for a day or weekend switch the maplist to default maps (ie certain dm/ctf/br) and see how the class balance changes - i know it's not difficult to do with webadmin but what do you guys think?

[Brody]

PS, serious suggestion (but not a permenant one) but how about for a day or weekend switch the maplist to default maps (ie certain dm/ctf/br) and see how the class balance changes - i know it's not difficult to do with webadmin but what do you guys think?

OMG, that would be awesome. I am missing the original INV maps something fierce.

[Desko]

If we had monsters that could inhibit a medic's ability to heal, or a WM's vampirism

That would be a bit ridiculous. Inhibit a Medic's only advantage? At least Adren masters can make any weapon they want. Medics HAVE to use the Medic Weapon. But maybe there could be monsters that certain classes can't kill, to encourage teamwork? I stand by my assertion that just beacuse Adren Masters can't use Vorpals and Energies to their maximum effect, doesn't mean they suck. Roll some Protection or Vampirism or Infinity weapons and you can do perfectly fine damage with your triple (more than Medics or WMs WITHOUT a triple.) Just because you can't fly into the middle of groups of monsters that should, and now can, instantly own you, doesn't mean your worthless now. Other classes have leveled up perfectly fine without being able to do that.

If your jealous of Medic's ability to heal, roll a healing weapon. If your jealous of their defense, roll a Protection, but for the love of god, don't say that Medics are overpowered. Maxed ADV Damage Reduction= 40% Damage Reduction, that's one Protection +4, and Adren Masters can make those +5. Their ability to survive damage outstrips a Medic's if you have maxed DR.

Adrenaline Masters are getting closer what I had always hoped they would be, a Druid type class, able to do the jobs of the other classes, but less effectively. However, they do those jobs MORE effectively on maps with abundant adrenaline, that's why we need less of those huge adrenaline pills.

And no Artifact Denial.

Maybe we should have stayed in class balancing to discuss this.

[Inspector]

If we had monsters that could inhibit a medic's ability to heal, or a WM's vampirism

That would be a bit ridiculous. Inhibit a Medic's only advantage? At least Adren masters can make any weapon they want. Medics HAVE to use the Medic Weapon. But maybe there could be monsters that certain classes can't kill, to encourage teamwork? I stand by my assertion that just beacuse Adren Masters can't use Vorpals and Energies to their maximum effect, doesn't mean they suck. Roll some Protection or Vampirism or Infinity weapons and you can do perfectly fine damage with your triple (more than Medics or WMs WITHOUT a triple.) Just because you can't fly into the middle of groups of monsters that should, and now can, instantly own you, doesn't mean your worthless now. Other classes have leveled up perfectly fine without being able to do that.

If your jealous of Medic's ability to heal, roll a healing weapon. If your jealous of their defense, roll a Protection, but for the love of god, don't say that Medics are overpowered. Maxed ADV Damage Reduction= 40% Damage Reduction, that's one Protection +4, and Adren Masters can make those +5. Their ability to survive damage outstrips a Medic's if you have maxed DR.

Adrenaline Masters are getting closer what I had always hoped they would be, a Druid type class, able to do the jobs of the other classes, but less effectively. However, they do those jobs MORE effectively on maps with abundant adrenaline, that's why we need less of those huge adrenaline pills.

And no Artifact Denial.

Maybe we should have stayed in class balancing to discuss this.

I wasn't suggesting that we make monsters that take away medic's ability to heal, I was using it to make a point.

[DW_WailofSuicide]

I wasn't suggesting that we make monsters that take away medic's ability to heal, I was using it to make a point.

If I could/can figure out a way to have monsters that inhibit healing or vampirism, I will definitely make monsters with those abilities.

[d2frob]

PS, serious suggestion (but not a permenant one) but how about for a day or weekend switch the maplist to default maps (ie certain dm/ctf/br) and see how the class balance changes - i know it's not difficult to do with webadmin but what do you guys think?

Try balancing for non-rediculous maps please ^^

[Desko]

If we had monsters that could inhibit a medic's ability to heal, or a WM's vampirism

That would be a bit ridiculous. Inhibit a Medic's only advantage? At least Adren masters can make any weapon they want. Medics HAVE to use the Medic Weapon. But maybe there could be monsters that certain classes can't kill, to encourage teamwork? I stand by my assertion that just beacuse Adren Masters can't use Vorpals and Energies to their maximum effect, doesn't mean they suck. Roll some Protection or Vampirism or Infinity weapons and you can do perfectly fine damage with your triple (more than Medics or WMs WITHOUT a triple.) Just because you can't fly into the middle of groups of monsters that should, and now can, instantly own you, doesn't mean your worthless now. Other classes have leveled up perfectly fine without being able to do that.

If your jealous of Medic's ability to heal, roll a healing weapon. If your jealous of their defense, roll a Protection, but for the love of god, don't say that Medics are overpowered. Maxed ADV Damage Reduction= 40% Damage Reduction, that's one Protection +4, and Adren Masters can make those +5. Their ability to survive damage outstrips a Medic's if you have maxed DR.

Adrenaline Masters are getting closer what I had always hoped they would be, a Druid type class, able to do the jobs of the other classes, but less effectively. However, they do those jobs MORE effectively on maps with abundant adrenaline, that's why we need less of those huge adrenaline pills.

And no Artifact Denial.

Maybe we should have stayed in class balancing to discuss this.

I wasn't suggesting that we make monsters that take away medic's ability to heal, I was using it to make a point.

What WAS the point?

[Inspector]

That would be a bit ridiculous. Inhibit a Medic's only advantage? At least Adren masters can make any weapon they want. Medics HAVE to use the Medic Weapon. But maybe there could be monsters that certain classes can't kill, to encourage teamwork? I stand by my assertion that just beacuse Adren Masters can't use Vorpals and Energies to their maximum effect, doesn't mean they suck. Roll some Protection or Vampirism or Infinity weapons and you can do perfectly fine damage with your triple (more than Medics or WMs WITHOUT a triple.) Just because you can't fly into the middle of groups of monsters that should, and now can, instantly own you, doesn't mean your worthless now. Other classes have leveled up perfectly fine without being able to do that.

If your jealous of Medic's ability to heal, roll a healing weapon. If your jealous of their defense, roll a Protection, but for the love of god, don't say that Medics are overpowered. Maxed ADV Damage Reduction= 40% Damage Reduction, that's one Protection +4, and Adren Masters can make those +5. Their ability to survive damage outstrips a Medic's if you have maxed DR.

Adrenaline Masters are getting closer what I had always hoped they would be, a Druid type class, able to do the jobs of the other classes, but less effectively. However, they do those jobs MORE effectively on maps with abundant adrenaline, that's why we need less of those huge adrenaline pills.

And no Artifact Denial.

Maybe we should have stayed in class balancing to discuss this.

I wasn't suggesting that we make monsters that take away medic's ability to heal, I was using it to make a point.

What WAS the point?

That the new monsters have been geared to disable it's ability to generate adren, and comparing that to disabling a major ability of another class. I was in no way suggesting it, and nor am I "jealous" of anything. Simply stating my perception of the new monsters. Read: Disclamer.

[DW_ACY]

If we had monsters that could inhibit a medic's ability to heal, or a WM's vampirism

That would be a bit ridiculous. Inhibit a Medic's only advantage? At least Adren masters can make any weapon they want. Medics HAVE to use the Medic Weapon. But maybe there could be monsters that certain classes can't kill, to encourage teamwork? I stand by my assertion that just beacuse Adren Masters can't use Vorpals and Energies to their maximum effect, doesn't mean they suck. Roll some Protection or Vampirism or Infinity weapons and you can do perfectly fine damage with your triple (more than Medics or WMs WITHOUT a triple.) Just because you can't fly into the middle of groups of monsters that should, and now can, instantly own you, doesn't mean your worthless now. Other classes have leveled up perfectly fine without being able to do that.

If your jealous of Medic's ability to heal, roll a healing weapon. If your jealous of their defense, roll a Protection, but for the love of god, don't say that Medics are overpowered. Maxed ADV Damage Reduction= 40% Damage Reduction, that's one Protection +4, and Adren Masters can make those +5. Their ability to survive damage outstrips a Medic's if you have maxed DR.

Adrenaline Masters are getting closer what I had always hoped they would be, a Druid type class, able to do the jobs of the other classes, but less effectively. However, they do those jobs MORE effectively on maps with abundant adrenaline, that's why we need less of those huge adrenaline pills.

And no Artifact Denial.

Maybe we should have stayed in class balancing to discuss this.

Desko: I for one don't think it would be redidulas because it has singled out Adren Masters abilities already. First it was the Voral + 22, in addition to that monsters were made that take adren and take away the ability to globe and fight. So you have started to strip away my abilities again and again. I for one did not vorp 22 alot I glob and fight. Thats how I built my character. I did not want to make protection or vamp unless I give them away to others which I do! I wanted energy for the later rounds when no one else coould go out and kill. We now have more waves where everyone is waiting out the time because no one can finish the wave and I know that is fact. I seen plenty of medics own I have seen plent of weapon masters own and I have seen plenty a ton of adren master own because the maps mostly adren friendly.
It was stated earlier you can't have a good experiment if you keep changing two or three varialbels and determine balance. This issue did not come up untill everyone started using adren masters. sorry I'm just not buying all the changes and your vission of adren masters. My vision is that on the harder waves they can kill monsters other classes can't kill. My vision of medics is they heal without being asked?
I built my adren master for a certain way of play and now the paramaters have been changed drasticly on me in less than a 2 week time and my build after 200 levels does not work after all the time I put into it.

I like the new monsters but you have to admit this has all been to strip me of my ability to fight during waves. Maintaining high adren levels is a must because I have no advanced damage reduction or the ability to heal myself, or regen or vampirism. Yeah I can make weapons that do those things but yours are skills that happen automaticly and when combined with a weapon of thise typs makes your skill +++++ better and able to survive. My ability to take and use adren effectivly has been cut because of the changes so i believe it would be more than fair for monsters to remove your ability to heal or regen or by pass damage reduction or not allow vampirism from it!

If balance was the issue look at the real cause vorpal +22 happened because adren was easily had. Not because of a class abilities. i 'm tired of everyone else saying what my class should or should not get becasue you don't like what it can do. Leave off and fix the real problem, quit jerkin the class around.