MP5 Denial issue

[Frylock]

Let me start off by saying that I'm not being critical of the progress of Denial troubleshooting in any way, I know the issue is already being worked on (thanks Wail). I'd just like to voice my opinion on the issue of changing the behavior of Denial for Adrenaline Masters.

As we know, the balance between classes is a delicate one, and the whole point of classes is that they each have mutually exclusive benefits. While the Adren Master currently gets an extra MP5 (usually) after death, I don't believe it's an unfair advantage over the Weapon Masters' Denial. When a WM dies, they keep the weapon they were holding, and also receive another copy of that weapon from Loaded Weapons (and often an extra MP5 for the heck of it) plus the rest of their set of Loaded Weapons. So if you've got a Vorpal Shock for example, and want a Null or Knockback or whatever to go with it, you can fight with your Vorp 'till you get killed, and you'll spawn with your Vorp plus another magic Shock (possibly the one you're looking for, possibly something else) that you can use or roll with a picked up artifact. When in as an Adren Master, I'd love to be able to get a copy of an Energy Link, and end up with the possibility of getting a Null Link if I die... but it doesn't work that way for that class. I doubt either of these behaviors were planned, but each gives a different set of possibilities for each class. I don't see one as being 'right' and one 'wrong'.

As an Adren, if you want to fight a map primarily with the MP5, you're going to want a Null for killin', or maybe an Energy for globin', and hopefully a Vamp for stayin' alive. A Weapon Master just needs either the Null or the Energy... they've got built-in Vampirism available. Getting your desired combination of MP5s is FAR from a given, even if you were try and die on purpose to get more MP5s. They combine together easily, etc... not to mention that it should become obvious rather quickly that this is not a winning strategy. Either you go out and die early and spend the rest of the wave not getting points (for however many waves it takes to get what you want), or you'll go out late and not get killed before the wave ends, starting the next wave with no health... or you'll accidentally kill yourself and lose it all anyway. Not exactly a sure-fire glitch by any stretch.

I have to quote a Cheap-ism, "Change the Players, not the game." Let's correct or boot people who abuse the system. There's always a glitch, there will be a certain percentage who fixate on exploiting it, and I believe the damage done by the very few who do this is far eclipsed by reality of not only changing the balance of classes but also the likely introduction of new "unintended features". The first incarnation of the Denial patch currently being tested will decide for you which of your MP5s you want to keep, discards the rest, then either gives you that MP5 or a different one altogether. You don't even have to die, just ghost and you'll lose any MP5s you've picked up. I fully understand that this is the first version of the patch and that the DW team are capable of addressing these and other issues that may come up, I only bring it up to illustrate the point. But I think it's development time that could be best spent on things like Healing Blast and crazy fish eye monsters and stuff.

On top of all this is my belief that the more different kinds of weapons the better. There are enough people that for one reason ore another only strive for their one infinite weapon (the most boring of the magic modifiers) that we don't need to take away yet another avenue of option and variety.

Just my $.02... the servers kick ass and thanks so much for them!

[venitocamelas]

I do not agree with you, all the classes have advantages and disadvantages. Then according to your criterion, the weapons master they must removes vamp and the extra of damage bonus that have ... indeed, i dont know where is the problem with the mp5. The one that does not like the class that has, that changes of class, but I believe that it is not necessary to to say that to the adrenaline masters it should remove itself one of his qualities and to other classes not .its only my personal opinion

[Jinx]

i agree with venit on this one, every class has a little something that makes the class worth having
why take away from adrenmasters and leave every other class to sit there the same?
like venit says
take away 3 lvls of vamp from wm, and perhaps experienced healing from medics, or make monsters a whole other class....

[DW_ACY]

I don't agree it was a bug that the mp5 does what it does with denial. It has gotten exacerbated as subsequent mods have occurred. It was never intended to do what it does, give another mp5 upon death there in lies the problem.

Just as we do not allow players to reconnect for a better weapon set if they are weapons masters at the beginning of a map, as many tried to do and found out the hard way that we do not allow that kind of activity in the interest of fair play. It's fine if you die and wait till next round but to disconnect and reconnect is not accepted and you will earn time off for it.

The spirit of fair play, is the issue, you are exploiting something that was not intended, gentlemen, if you can't see that then I'm sorry.

[Jinx]

it wouldn't be a problem if one died then?

[DW_Cheapshot]

lets not forget you were never meant to have more than 1 mp5.
If you have more that 1 it is glitching, weather we allow it or not is a separate issue. Killing your self 5 times on wave 1 to get extra mp5s is what caused us to work on this problem. This glitch is being used by several players on a regular basis. We will continue to deal with this problem in the only way we can. We have given several players unpaid vacations. You glitch and you take your chances that a admin will happen to see the infraction.

[DW_Skittles]

Thanks for explaining that cheap ;)

[Frylock]

Jinx and Venitocamelas, I don't think I'm disagreeing with you on those points, I'm suggesting we might leave it as it is. If the adren master has an advantage and we take it away, then the weapon master has the advantage that can possibly be exploited... do we take that away? When the medic is the most powerful... I just didn't think the balance of power was too far out of wack as it is. People who continuously die on purpose, and you know who you are, should get kicked, then they won't be exploiting any of the potential holes in the system.

Acy and cheap, my opinion was more from a perspective of what the overall impact on gameplay might be due to the MP5 issue versus the impact of the MP5 glitchers... not claiming the extra MP5s to be "right" or "wrong". Since you're the ones setting the rules of the game, whichever way you choose to leave it is right. This is also coming from the amount of glitching I've personally seen, which may be different from the actual amount of glitching going on. If you're having to boot people left and right, then I would agree that you've gotta do what you've gotta do to keep it sane.

It probably looks like I'm making a bigger deal out of it than I intend to. I type over 100 WPM, so I end up firing off long posts when I can't explain myself more succinctly.

[venitocamelas]

Then, which is the real problem in all this?
That an adrenaline masters can have 2 different mp5 and other classes not?

Have they to the adrenaline masters complain for that the weapons masters can have vamp without mistake of using a weapon for such a purpose? Or that have this extra damage at the moment of killing to the monsters? Or that they begin with all the weapon when the map not have mines,link or other weapon? I continue thinking equally, if advantages are given some, they give themselves all, or remove themselves all.

Realy,i dont know why this theme create too many polemic , when they are the adrenaline masters those who often create weapon for the others.

well,if have 2 mp5 is an infracction,please update the rules and all people knows this,and remove the extra weapons droping for the monsters for all player,because have 2 links is glitching too.this is the just for all.

and frylock,i dont know that you want to say exactly,i suicide sometimes,yes,i admit,but i alwais play respecting the rules,and on rules there is nothing with regard to this,i never glitch,or bad behavior with other players,always try to help to other players with the weapons...who know me he knows it.and sorry for my english.

[Frylock]

Well, I had been on the same side of the argument as you, trying to convince them to keep things the way they are now, since I had assumed that very few people were taking advantage of it, but I have to retract all that.

In between the time you posted your last message and the time I'm posting this one, even after Cheap explained that picking up multiple weapons is fine but intentionally dying is against the rules, you continue to go and suicide for MP5s when there are like 5 DW members in the server. Then you're going to race me to pick up a Triple Damage when you're in as an Adren Master? Literally minutes after posting about how respectful of the rules and helpful to other players you are? The fact that you just posted means you obviously read the thread, so you'd have to know that not only do they not want people suciding, but that they're closely watching for it at the moment.

The fact that you may have not previously known it was against the rules would have been fine, and might have been believable yesterday, but come on. You're just rubbing our noses in it.

On any other day I would have found it a coincidence that during Luci wave you were globing on the opposite side of Luci from me... then you drew his attention and ran right over by me drawing fire when I obviously wasn't using a globe. Sure, that can randomly happen from time to time, not an issue. Then I ran around to the other side of Luci and you did it again, then I switched again and you followed me. And I mean switched opposite sides lengthwise around the circle, not radially as one would normally do if dodge tanking. And then one more time.

Quality tanking there. It's clear that you really do use the benefit of extra MP5s to help out the team. Or would you have me believe that you needed to run back and forth in order to get a steady shot on Luci?

Amazingly, none of the sarcastic remarks that I can think of to end on really do the situation enough justice.