This topic is a bit of a rehash, but after taking another 3-4 month vacation and seeing the AM balance issue still going strong, I thought maybe we could dicuss it again (that is if Franky doesn't blow a gasket. :sblush:)
Okay so check it. Here's a rundown on why I think AM's are completely and utterly broken.
1: They can infinitely roll their weapons to perfection.
Counter argument: they have to find those weapons first.
Counter-counter argument: almost all maps have weapon depots.
2: They can create +22 vorpals.
Counter argument: they only give 1 xp per kill (or so I've heard?)
Counter-counter argument: killing so many monsters so quickly leaves fewer monsters for everyone else to make XP on. What's the point?
3: They can create +22 rage weapons.
Counter argument: rage hurts you!
Counter-counter argument: AMs can maintain infinite globe of invulnerability, nullifying their chance of death.
4: They can maintain infinite globe and triple damage with perfectly rolled weapons.
Counter argument: ???
Counter-counter argument: Zzz.
5: They can keep their perfectly rolled weapons indefinitely with recall.
Counter argument: ???
Counter-counter argument: Zzz.
6: They spawn with almost every artifact in the game.
Counter argument: ???
Counter-counter argument: Zzz.
Basically, the point is, there is absolutely no downside to AM. They are perfect in every way. Permanent globe, permanent triple, permanent perfected weapons, +22 rage and vorpal, almost all artifacts... damn.
At what point did the devs feel they were balanced with WMs and MMs? Are the classes supposed to be relatively balanced or was AM intended to be so incredibly god-like in every way? Does anyone care? :swondering:
AM balance?
Well not a lot of people like playing AMs - I have one and prefer my WM... my WM is now in the 130's and if I get a globe and an Energy wep I can give as good as I can but limited Adren means I dont do that well ... yet :)
AM's at low level are same as everything else pretty hard to play - mine is 5x and I pretty much hide and make weapons for people until Luci exp. On that note, a kind AM spends the first 5 waves pretty much rolling weapons, and on Chicargo at least, the pass around is pretty high. Theres does seem to be a lot of AMs but tbh most people have one of everything now, and often switch about during the map. Also people play diff classes depending on the map. For example: Bunker - I find it a bit boring and hard to gain exp with my WM therefore I play my low AM.
Low second class AMs are very good for 3 reasons: Sharing artifacts, weapon creation for everyone, and keeping the monster level low :) High AMs though do spend time rolling weapons for people, naming names.... Kenton always has a spare wep for people :) The low-mid range levels are pretty good for helping people before themselves. Sure they can score high but then, give a medic the righ stuff, or an WM... and we can prod buttock as well as an AM.
Just because you have the tools doesnt mean your good with them :) But saying that I see your point :) but I havent really thought of them as over powered, maybe the AMs I play with are just nice people! :)
They can infinitely roll their weapons to perfection.
As for that comment, I spent 15 waves trying to get an infi and an energy before, and this was on a map with an insta spawn adren ;)
AM's at low level are same as everything else pretty hard to play - mine is 5x and I pretty much hide and make weapons for people until Luci exp. On that note, a kind AM spends the first 5 waves pretty much rolling weapons, and on Chicargo at least, the pass around is pretty high. Theres does seem to be a lot of AMs but tbh most people have one of everything now, and often switch about during the map. Also people play diff classes depending on the map. For example: Bunker - I find it a bit boring and hard to gain exp with my WM therefore I play my low AM.
Low second class AMs are very good for 3 reasons: Sharing artifacts, weapon creation for everyone, and keeping the monster level low :) High AMs though do spend time rolling weapons for people, naming names.... Kenton always has a spare wep for people :) The low-mid range levels are pretty good for helping people before themselves. Sure they can score high but then, give a medic the righ stuff, or an WM... and we can prod buttock as well as an AM.
Just because you have the tools doesnt mean your good with them :) But saying that I see your point :) but I havent really thought of them as over powered, maybe the AMs I play with are just nice people! :)
They can infinitely roll their weapons to perfection.
As for that comment, I spent 15 waves trying to get an infi and an energy before, and this was on a map with an insta spawn adren ;)
I'm level 184 on server 2 and I've rarely (and I do mean rarely) seen AMs be generous with maxing weapons or sharing weapons/artifacts. In fact the 3 or 4 times I've politely asked for a max I'm always met with silence, so I've given up asking. Maybe things are different on server 1, but on server 2 it's every man for himself.
Supposed AM generosity aside, it has no bearing on whether or not they're balanced respective of the other classes. In terms of score and XP made I'm not sure. I can often top the scoreboard on a WM with triple/infinite mp5, but given the incredible repository of awesomeness AMs have I'm not really sure how they aren't #1 all the time. Maybe you're right and it has more to do with the players than the gear. Franky does well, he usually tops 10k score on most good maps and so do a few other decent AMs.
Anyway, if the discussion is about balance, I'd love to see the ability to create +22 weapons taken out of the game. AMs already have the best of everything, why do they need these monstrosities?
Supposed AM generosity aside, it has no bearing on whether or not they're balanced respective of the other classes. In terms of score and XP made I'm not sure. I can often top the scoreboard on a WM with triple/infinite mp5, but given the incredible repository of awesomeness AMs have I'm not really sure how they aren't #1 all the time. Maybe you're right and it has more to do with the players than the gear. Franky does well, he usually tops 10k score on most good maps and so do a few other decent AMs.
Anyway, if the discussion is about balance, I'd love to see the ability to create +22 weapons taken out of the game. AMs already have the best of everything, why do they need these monstrosities?
I wouldn't say AMs are overpowered, I would say WM are. At high levels they can globe and trip as well as any AM. They have 10% more DB. They heal with every hit, on top of regeneration. They spawn with all weapons (and up to 6 superweapons depending on how much Ammo Bonus they have.) They may not have the magic they want but when loaded weapons is max they will all be +'s and a good player can use any magic to an advantage.) With max Ammo Bonus topped with Resupply almost all weapons are as good an infinate so the ability to make one becomes redundant. They are usually the top scorers.
As for the +22 weapons ... that takes A LOT of adren to keep running and only very high levels can keep double enchantment, globe and trip running all at the same time. If they have worked hard enough to get that high then they should be allowed to use it.
As a note I am not an AM. I am an MM :)
As for the +22 weapons ... that takes A LOT of adren to keep running and only very high levels can keep double enchantment, globe and trip running all at the same time. If they have worked hard enough to get that high then they should be allowed to use it.
As a note I am not an AM. I am an MM :)
To bring about the end you have to start at the beginning.
Fair enough opinion, but I don't necessarily agree with your points. I've never been able to maintain triple AND globe on a WM - the drain is just too high. It's either one or the other, usually triple because it's necessary to keep adrenaline up. Maybe it's possible with +3 energy minelayer on a really crowded map, but I really doubt it - it's hard enough to maintain triple sometimes, especially if there's a lot of people getting the last shot on monsters. Oh yeah, and this also relies on spawning with a slow ammo draining +3 energy weapon which doesn't happen often at all. I can't even remember the last time I spawned with a +3 energy minelayer. It's also entirely possible to go an entire game without picking up a triple or globe, or dying and losing them.
60% of the time level 5 loaded weapons will spawn suck weapons. This is why I often kill myself at the end of a wave - I'd rather have 1 good weapon for the remainder of a map than 10+ relatively crap weapons. Comparing level 5 loaded weapons to perfect AM rolls isn't very fair, especially since WMs can only keep one weapon with recall. The only convenience is that WMs spawn with them and AMs have to spend the first few waves making them.
Comparing vampirism to infinite godmode is another unfair comparison. Max vampire, max DR and max HP do nothing against instagibbing titan rocks or very high level raptors, while globe is invulnerable to everything. An AM can opt to barely pump any points into DR thanks to globe.
Maybe at level 400+ all weapons have "infinite" ammo. I have 300 or 400 ammo bonus with max resupply and it's far from infinite on high drain weapons (mp5, minigun, link, biorifle, etc). I can burn through any of them in under 2 minutes.
+22 rage combined with globe is just plain broken no matter how you look at it. WMs aren't the only ones who can get ammo bonus - imagine how long a +22 rage shock or flak can last thanks to their slow ammo drain. +22 vorpal, if it's true every vorp gives 1 xp, only serves to lessen the amount of monsters for everyone else to make XP on. Tbh, there's no reason +22 should even exist in the game, and if it has to, why would it be on an AM and not a WEAPON master? :swondering:
As for super weapons? Ion doesn't even work on half the maps thanks to mapper oversight, which is fantastic for a skill that costs 120 points. Redeemer ammo doesn't replenish itself respective of max ammo either.
Anyway, I'm happy to debate the finer points of balance with anyone. Keep the posts coming!
60% of the time level 5 loaded weapons will spawn suck weapons. This is why I often kill myself at the end of a wave - I'd rather have 1 good weapon for the remainder of a map than 10+ relatively crap weapons. Comparing level 5 loaded weapons to perfect AM rolls isn't very fair, especially since WMs can only keep one weapon with recall. The only convenience is that WMs spawn with them and AMs have to spend the first few waves making them.
Comparing vampirism to infinite godmode is another unfair comparison. Max vampire, max DR and max HP do nothing against instagibbing titan rocks or very high level raptors, while globe is invulnerable to everything. An AM can opt to barely pump any points into DR thanks to globe.
Maybe at level 400+ all weapons have "infinite" ammo. I have 300 or 400 ammo bonus with max resupply and it's far from infinite on high drain weapons (mp5, minigun, link, biorifle, etc). I can burn through any of them in under 2 minutes.
+22 rage combined with globe is just plain broken no matter how you look at it. WMs aren't the only ones who can get ammo bonus - imagine how long a +22 rage shock or flak can last thanks to their slow ammo drain. +22 vorpal, if it's true every vorp gives 1 xp, only serves to lessen the amount of monsters for everyone else to make XP on. Tbh, there's no reason +22 should even exist in the game, and if it has to, why would it be on an AM and not a WEAPON master? :swondering:
As for super weapons? Ion doesn't even work on half the maps thanks to mapper oversight, which is fantastic for a skill that costs 120 points. Redeemer ammo doesn't replenish itself respective of max ammo either.
Anyway, I'm happy to debate the finer points of balance with anyone. Keep the posts coming!
Server 2 must be different from server 1 by a large amount.
- First is that you said you were 184? That is pretty low in the grand scheme of things. I was talking about 250+
- Second is that on server 1 a level 250+ WM can run a globe and a trip constantly usually.
- Third ... very few WMs above level 200 ask for infi's, next to none in fact, due to Ammo Bonus and Resupply. Mostly it is petri or energy.
- Fourth, you seem to have neglected the fact that globe does not make you immune to everything, you can still get poisoned, which cuts through you if you have no DR.
- Fifth ... energy mine layer? Yes it is good but 100+ you should at least be using a flak or you aim must royaly suck.
- You die to get better weapons? ANY weapon can be used by a good player. The only one that is affected by map is flight.
- From the maps I have played about 80% have ion working on them, and the maps are the same in server 1 as server 2.
- Very few AMs on the server I play on will use a Vorpal due to exp loss if they are over level 100.
- +22 rage will kill you, 22% of the damage done taken off your health, with no health gain skill? If you are tripping, globing and doubling your weapons enchantment without a energy weapons that player will have to be level 250+ and very skilled (the same level it would take you to run a constant globe and trip)
- As for deemer isn't affect by resupply ... 6 deemers a wave isn't enough for you?
- Also, you will find that rolling a weapon is luck (and you have to find it on the map first) I know AMs that have spent 14 waves just trying to get an infi link, thats ignoring all other weapon types they want to reroll. Averagly it takes about till wave 6 till an AM will have all the weapons they want without trading with other AMs.
I would be the last to say classes are balanced, but over all I think WMs and AMs are about tied on strengths if they are played well. It is medics that have the problems usually (hence the decreasing number found on sever 1) You have to be a damned good player to score well at later levels. *cough* MrE and DevilMan *cough*
- First is that you said you were 184? That is pretty low in the grand scheme of things. I was talking about 250+
- Second is that on server 1 a level 250+ WM can run a globe and a trip constantly usually.
- Third ... very few WMs above level 200 ask for infi's, next to none in fact, due to Ammo Bonus and Resupply. Mostly it is petri or energy.
- Fourth, you seem to have neglected the fact that globe does not make you immune to everything, you can still get poisoned, which cuts through you if you have no DR.
- Fifth ... energy mine layer? Yes it is good but 100+ you should at least be using a flak or you aim must royaly suck.
- You die to get better weapons? ANY weapon can be used by a good player. The only one that is affected by map is flight.
- From the maps I have played about 80% have ion working on them, and the maps are the same in server 1 as server 2.
- Very few AMs on the server I play on will use a Vorpal due to exp loss if they are over level 100.
- +22 rage will kill you, 22% of the damage done taken off your health, with no health gain skill? If you are tripping, globing and doubling your weapons enchantment without a energy weapons that player will have to be level 250+ and very skilled (the same level it would take you to run a constant globe and trip)
- As for deemer isn't affect by resupply ... 6 deemers a wave isn't enough for you?
- Also, you will find that rolling a weapon is luck (and you have to find it on the map first) I know AMs that have spent 14 waves just trying to get an infi link, thats ignoring all other weapon types they want to reroll. Averagly it takes about till wave 6 till an AM will have all the weapons they want without trading with other AMs.
I would be the last to say classes are balanced, but over all I think WMs and AMs are about tied on strengths if they are played well. It is medics that have the problems usually (hence the decreasing number found on sever 1) You have to be a damned good player to score well at later levels. *cough* MrE and DevilMan *cough*
To bring about the end you have to start at the beginning.
where were you in math class? do you understand how insignificant a 10% increase of ANYTHING is? its 10%, its always 10%. for example, if I had 100 of something, and I somehow was given a 10% increase, I now have 110 of something.Dynadin wrote:They have 10% more DB.
So, my original was 100, and then I added 10 to it. In the long run, 110 is not very much more than 100. Infact, it's only 10% more. How much is triple? it's +300% damage. Let's say you are doing 300 damage with each lightning gun shot. With triple on, you are now doing 600 more damage, up to a final damage of 900. if the WM with ADB next to you has the same stats (and I believe ADB is calculated last), the WM has 300+300%=900+10%= 990 damage. The final skill of a WM, right next to a AM, will confer a difference of 90 damage in this case.
900 on AM and 990 on WM
out of a weapon that does 300 damage a shot. WM seems to be winning!
BUT WAIT THERE'S MORE. (all numbers received from the wiki)
AM's have the ability to craft weapons up to +22. WM's can only get up to +10 on their own. We're going to be talking about a Vorpal weapon here. Unfortunately, the Wiki does not supply me with how damage is calculated out, so I do not know when weapon +'s come into play. Also, I am not adding in Damage Bonus to these calculations, as I also cannot find any resources telling me where it resides in the equation. But since DB will be 145% for both (290 DB) and having it in or out will not necessarily change the differences, we'll simply call this damage out of calculation the Effective Damage.
Let's take that same Lightning Gun (300 damage a hit). WM will get it's max (10) and AM's will get it's max (22). For this calculation, the +'s are assumed to only modify the damage AFTER the weapon's base damage.
WM with LG+10: 300+100% = 600; 600+300%(triple) = 1,800; 1,800+10%= 1,980
Final Effective Damage = 1,980
AM with LG+22: 300+220% = 960; 960+300%(triple) = 2,880
Final Effective Damage = 2,880
AM's have a 900 damage advantage over WM's.
So where is WM's advantage? I thought they were supposed to be the highest damage class. The difference: WM's get ADB, which adds 10%. So, basically multiply your original damage by .1 and then add that product to the original number. AM's can craft up to +22 weapons. That's 220% on vorpal's and rage. That would be multiplying your weapons damage by 2.2, and then adding the product to the original number. That's also 132% for Freezing weapons, etc. ADB may have the advantage of being calculated last to have the most benefit from it's %, but the 10% is far too small to even drop ripples in the damage pool that AM has access to.
So if we're going to argue about the differences of WM/AM, if we're going to try to say what's overpowered, shouldn't it be notable that WM's, who are supposed to be the highest damagers, are actually in the middle? They are only above MM's because of a difference of 10%. 10% of damage is what separates the damage of WM's to MM's.
Am I going crazy or is this absurd?
Last edited by juice on Sun Feb 21, 2010 12:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.
I've never even seen P.O.M. or Nahasapeetapetalon (spelling?) maintain globe and triple constantly, and they're the highest level WMs I can name on server 2. Both of them get (or got in POM's case, he hasn't been around in months) ruined by titan rocks on a semi regular basis.Dynadin wrote:Server 2 must be different from server 1 by a large amount.
- First is that you said you were 184? That is pretty low in the grand scheme of things. I was talking about 250+
- Second is that on server 1 a level 250+ WM can run a globe and a trip constantly usually.
- Third ... very few WMs above level 200 ask for infi's, next to none in fact, due to Ammo Bonus and Resupply. Mostly it is petri or energy.
- Fourth, you seem to have neglected the fact that globe does not make you immune to everything, you can still get poisoned, which cuts through you if you have no DR.
- Fifth ... energy mine layer? Yes it is good but 100+ you should at least be using a flak or you aim must royaly suck.
- You die to get better weapons? ANY weapon can be used by a good player. The only one that is affected by map is flight.
- From the maps I have played about 80% have ion working on them, and the maps are the same in server 1 as server 2.
- Very few AMs on the server I play on will use a Vorpal due to exp loss if they are over level 100.
- +22 rage will kill you, 22% of the damage done taken off your health, with no health gain skill? If you are tripping, globing and doubling your weapons enchantment without a energy weapons that player will have to be level 250+ and very skilled (the same level it would take you to run a constant globe and trip)
- As for deemer isn't affect by resupply ... 6 deemers a wave isn't enough for you?
- Also, you will find that rolling a weapon is luck (and you have to find it on the map first) I know AMs that have spent 14 waves just trying to get an infi link, thats ignoring all other weapon types they want to reroll. Averagly it takes about till wave 6 till an AM will have all the weapons they want without trading with other AMs.
I would be the last to say classes are balanced, but over all I think WMs and AMs are about tied on strengths if they are played well. It is medics that have the problems usually (hence the decreasing number found on sever 1) You have to be a damned good player to score well at later levels. *cough* MrE and DevilMan *cough*
I don't know where you got the idea that max resupply and high max ammo = infinite weapons. I already told you, I can burn through 300-400 ammo bonus MP5 in under 2 minutes. The only weapons it effectively makes infinite are slow firing weapons like minelayer, flak (sort of), shock (sort of), snipe and lightning gun. If I had 800 ammo bonus I'd run out in under 4 minutes. You see where I'm going with this? Have you ever played a WM? :swondering:
I'd take infinite MP5 with triple over limited petri MP5 any day, good as petri may be. Contrary to your insult, I have no problem aiming, hence I'd take infinite over petri. This is another reason MMs have no excuse not to compete toe to toe with WMs - they can GUARANTEE an infinite MP5 and rock the monsters with triple as hard as a WM (who has to HOPE for an infinite hitscan).
Any weapon, good or bad, can be used by any player - that doesn't mean it gives a good XP per minute ratio however. That is why I kill myself. I'd rather not roll around the map with a +1 non-magic type MP5 getting far less XP for my time. Yes, this is a problem with loaded weapons - you are not guaranteed magic type and you'll often spawn with plain +1s.
80% of maps support ion? I don't think so. The odds of a map not supporting ion are so high I never even attempt to bust it anymore.
Rage does NOT kill you, it reduces your health to 70 and cannot reduce it below that. That means you can globe it up and never die (outside of poison which is only on a few waves). You don't need to add triple to the mix - +22 rage needs ONLY to be combined with globe to be godlike.
You do NOT get 6 redeemers per wave, you get a maximum of your ammo bonus PER LIFE. If you use up all 6 redeemers, you are NOT respawned 6 new ones on the next wave, you get ONE. The same applies to ions. A smart WM will never use his deemers until Lucifer because they are NOT replenished.
It seems obvious to me you've never played a WM, but I've never played a high level AM either, so we're on equal footing. I'd prefer your points be backed up with facts, though, or at least a proper understanding of how certain features function.
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DW_WailofSuicide
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This is an old debate and it basically goes -Scumsberg wrote:This topic is a bit of a rehash, but after taking another 3-4 month vacation and seeing the AM balance issue still going strong, I thought maybe we could dicuss it again (that is if Franky doesn't blow a gasket. :sblush:)
At what point did the devs feel they were balanced with WMs and MMs? Are the classes supposed to be relatively balanced or was AM intended to be so incredibly god-like in every way? Does anyone care? :swondering:
AM is ok on maps that aren't designed to abuse the nature of the AM's powers. Not exceptionally more powerful than the WM who has gotten Triple+Globe.
AM is overpowered on maps that give him easy free adrenaline and setups where it can easily globe/triple and maintain that through killing spree bonuses and/or Energy weapons.
The fact of the matter is that "the devs" at least on this server, didn't design the classes this way. It's just how they are set up in DruidsRPG200. DruidsRPG is designed for a different server with different maps and different server settings - The AM is not inherently problematic over there as it is here for a variety of reasons. And the fact of the matter is I am very wary about changing classes that have been that way for ever because then people who have played a character a certain way for years will have the rug swept out entirely from underneath them. Even if it's for balance purposes I'd rather not do that - I'd never hear the end of it.
The more likely scenario is - Monsters get more powers designed to be challenging and annoying, and we improve the quality of maps on the server, and maybe at some point we make a "balanced AM" (and balanced WM class, and balanced Medic class too) that you can play if you actually want to care about that.