New Maps Added 9/17
ONS-AAO_FloatingNodes
ONS-Desert_JunkYard
ONS-Digital
ONS-Sandboxnet
ONS-Stygian
ONS-Thunderstruck
Nothing great, just different. Gets harder and harder to find maps. Anyway, let me know how they play.
Rich (TW)
New Maps Added
Played Sandboxnet....HORRIBLE. One weapon locker at the core WAY out place, have to go out of your way just to get two shitty weapons with hardly any ammo. All the lockers are like this too, only gives 2 weaps, and very little ammo. Pacing sucks and it left a dirty taste in my mouth.
Namu
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DW_ToxicWaste
- Site Admin
- Posts: 1060
- Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2005 12:00 am
So I'm not sure. Does that mean no?
Removed.
Rich (TW)
Removed.
Rich (TW)
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DW_ToxicWaste
- Site Admin
- Posts: 1060
- Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2005 12:00 am
No, I knew it kinda sucked. It's just that sometimes things play better than you think.
Thanks for the feedback.
Rich (TW)
Thanks for the feedback.
Rich (TW)
I've run Stygian before and it can be a fun map with better links than default. Here's the setup I've used that you might want to try out:
Nexus
I'm not familiar with the others you've added here so I'll keep an eye out and try to get them voted in next time I'm on (if I can make thru the barage of TANK TANK whines of course).
If I may threadjack a little, I would like to see the night version of Tropic32p called TropicNightfall added to the map list if possible. It's the same map for the most part just set at night with a few small alterations/tweaks but it tends to play differently due to the night sky.
Also, would it be possible to get a listing of all your active maps Toxic? I was all set to suggest a few maps when I saw an older post saying you've added maps and that you had already added the ones I was going to suggest. I try and remember what you have and don't have but you still use UT2vote and that mut hides maps from showing up on the list that were voted within the repeat limit for some bizarre reason. What a stupid design decision.
EDIT: Oh btw ZeroImpact went final a few weeks ago and you're still running an early beta, #2 I believe. The final version adds some needed changes like skylights in the building protecting the middle node so it can't be held so easily.
Nexus
I'm not familiar with the others you've added here so I'll keep an eye out and try to get them voted in next time I'm on (if I can make thru the barage of TANK TANK whines of course).If I may threadjack a little, I would like to see the night version of Tropic32p called TropicNightfall added to the map list if possible. It's the same map for the most part just set at night with a few small alterations/tweaks but it tends to play differently due to the night sky.
Also, would it be possible to get a listing of all your active maps Toxic? I was all set to suggest a few maps when I saw an older post saying you've added maps and that you had already added the ones I was going to suggest. I try and remember what you have and don't have but you still use UT2vote and that mut hides maps from showing up on the list that were voted within the repeat limit for some bizarre reason. What a stupid design decision.
EDIT: Oh btw ZeroImpact went final a few weeks ago and you're still running an early beta, #2 I believe. The final version adds some needed changes like skylights in the building protecting the middle node so it can't be held so easily.
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DW_ToxicWaste
- Site Admin
- Posts: 1060
- Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2005 12:00 am
Hey Urtho, as always thanks for the input. I will take a look at that layout for Stygian.
I will make a sticky with the map list.
I'm struggling to find new maps. I pretty much raided the Titan vault for accepted and rejected maps. Not too many new releases for a game as old as this one. I'm willing to try anything at this point. I see other servers getting a lot of traffic all of a sudden, and I'm wracking my brain to understand why. Is the server running ok? Are mismatches with ONSPlus causing problems?
The only difference I see is that they are running some maps that I thought were no good because they are either too small, or just plain suck. Is just having different maps, even though they appear to be crap, important? I know the purist answer is no, but what about the mob answer? I think I know it.
The other thing I have been toying with is the idea of going to a 3 point victory. Too many times in the last few days, I have seen the server empty out because there were three maps in a row that were under a few minutes. People always leave after a map, and people always flock to populated servers. If you have three short ones in a row, it can clear a server really fast.
(Can't wait for 2k7)
Rich (TW)
I will make a sticky with the map list.
I'm struggling to find new maps. I pretty much raided the Titan vault for accepted and rejected maps. Not too many new releases for a game as old as this one. I'm willing to try anything at this point. I see other servers getting a lot of traffic all of a sudden, and I'm wracking my brain to understand why. Is the server running ok? Are mismatches with ONSPlus causing problems?
The only difference I see is that they are running some maps that I thought were no good because they are either too small, or just plain suck. Is just having different maps, even though they appear to be crap, important? I know the purist answer is no, but what about the mob answer? I think I know it.
The other thing I have been toying with is the idea of going to a 3 point victory. Too many times in the last few days, I have seen the server empty out because there were three maps in a row that were under a few minutes. People always leave after a map, and people always flock to populated servers. If you have three short ones in a row, it can clear a server really fast.
(Can't wait for 2k7)
Rich (TW)
Thanks for the map list sticky Toxic, it is appreciated. I'm not in the mood right now, but when I have some time and the inclination I'm going to go thru the whole list and offer up some pruning suggestions...
For the moment, here are some more new maps for you to check out that you might want to add or at least give a look at in order to keep up the variety level on the server:
ONS All Fall Down
http://unrealtournament2004.filefront.c ... Down;59166
ONS-NMP2-PanaleshSE
http://www.pcgamemods.com/mod/7452.htm
**NOTE - There is a 32p beta version of this map out there currently in use on some servers (I have it in my cache right now) but I couldn't find an active link)
ONS-DG-SandStone-Night
http://unrealtournament2004.filefront.c ... ight;66072
You may also want to review this thread and especially the threads it links to regarding their map packs and betas over on Titan's forum if you're still hurting for new maps. Although you have a lot of them I can see quite a few that you've missed. I don't know if these are good or bad but... they're in use on Titan so they are probably worth at least a quick look even in the current beta form some of the unfinished ones are in. Here's the link:
http://ut2004.titaninternet.co.uk/forum ... php?t=9276
Now, to your questions. For the first one I can clearly say that there have been / still are numerous ONSPlus version mismatches between the various 32 player ONS servers out there right now. I know Omnipotent is running a different one than you as if you try to join one server from the other without dropping back to the main menu (or even restarting the game sometimes) you'lll get the mismatch. Not sure what you can do about this to get everyone on the same page really. Some polite requests to the other admins to keep everyone on the latest version might be worth a try. A.S.S. might be running a different one as well, even if not I know Titan is given it was made there and they'll always have the latest. It's a bit of a mess from a player standpoint at the moment frankly.
As for the 3 pts needed for a map victory item, that is debatable both ways but it couldn't hurt to try. My only concern with doing that is with 3 pt wins you need to keep the round lengths somewhat smaller. Maximum of 12 minute rounds I would say and even 10 wouldn't be out of the question. Going with 15 min rounds means you have a max game time of over an hour and 15 minutes per map which is way too long for me. 10 min rounds drops that figure down under an hour at max which is a lot more tolerable. Might also want to tweak upward your core drain settings - make it drain faster once OT is reached so you don't get 5 min + OTs which can certainly drag on. My view - try it but be prepared to revert back or tweak heavily if it doesn't go over well. I think it could work but every server/player base is unique so only active playtesting will tell you for sure one way or the other.
This quote by the way:
Hmm, ok so you are also wondering about this:
You can restrict or at least limit some of those bad choices in a non-obvious fashion by the maps you choose to have available for your players. Specific to your ONS server, a map that was tweaked and crafted to support 32 player ONS games is unlikey to be a bad map for the simple reason that the testing process was done by people who have experience in what works for that type of gameplay. A single map author working in the dark as it were on his vision of what a map should be with no critiques or suggestions from actual players is highly unlikely to get a map just right on the first try for this level of play. And small seemingly insignificant "artistic liscense" type details can have huge gameplay consequences when you have 32 human players going at it online on your map looking for any potential flaw or advantage so that they can win the game.
Anyways, to get back to your question - what is the real answer to this problem of fluctuating player counts in the end? I'm not sure there is one frankly - and even if there is I certainly don't have this magic bullet that would fix that issue and make everything looking like roses. If I did my server wouldn't have died the painful slow death of low use that dwindles into non-use even after I spent countless hours tweaking and testing the map rotations, vote and network settings and so on just to get it so people would have a good game. What happened? They cry about lag that doesn't exist on the server end, badmouth the maps, the settings, my mother, etc. and leave. Sigh, that's the way it goes I guess. (This wasn't the complete reason it was pulled but it didn't help mind you).
I'm not trying to depress you Toxic (although I may be doing that - sorry if so), I like yourself am just starting to see the same thing happen here that I've seen take hold personally and on other servers I've been active on. UT2004 is an older game that never was as popular as it could have been. The reasons for that fact could and have been debated endlessly but the fact remains that the game doesn't have massive amounts of players still active with it so it can be bleeding players who get fed up with the game an aberation like Counterstrike can.
One thing I have seen at least slow the decay for clan servers is to get and keep your clan active in the game. I don't know how many members you have but you need to keep a good percentage of them active on any given night on your servers to keep them populated. Clan players look to other clan players in quantity on any server as a good pickup game waiting to happen and more numbers will obviously draw in the casual player. If you can't get them to be more active, send out feelers to other clans to ask them to stop on by, advertise on some of the clan/pro forums perhaps. I suspect that the DW server may have something of a... hmm let's say "general public" rep to it by now in certain circles so that course of action may prove fruitless or at least somewhat difficult just so you know.
Tangental to the above you might try to more actively promote the forums and the DW community in general you've got going here as something worthy of getting involved in as player involvment will always generate interest and loyalty to a server even if some of the details of how things are run or settings/maps used don't appeal to some. Try something like the in-game announce messages mutator (or is that what you've got going? might be but add/tweak it if so) to talk up the community more or perhaps offer gameplay tips and suggestions like the A.S.S. server does I think. Anything that gets players to be drawn into your sphere of influence so that they're kept an active part of your player base is a good thing to promote.
Anyways, just some rambling thoughts for your reading amusment...
EDIT -> This should probably have been private for Toxic only now that I look back on some of what I wrote but... meh it's out there now I guess. Feel free to delete if you wish to take or keep this private for any reason Toxic.
For the moment, here are some more new maps for you to check out that you might want to add or at least give a look at in order to keep up the variety level on the server:
ONS All Fall Down
http://unrealtournament2004.filefront.c ... Down;59166
ONS-NMP2-PanaleshSE
http://www.pcgamemods.com/mod/7452.htm
**NOTE - There is a 32p beta version of this map out there currently in use on some servers (I have it in my cache right now) but I couldn't find an active link)
ONS-DG-SandStone-Night
http://unrealtournament2004.filefront.c ... ight;66072
You may also want to review this thread and especially the threads it links to regarding their map packs and betas over on Titan's forum if you're still hurting for new maps. Although you have a lot of them I can see quite a few that you've missed. I don't know if these are good or bad but... they're in use on Titan so they are probably worth at least a quick look even in the current beta form some of the unfinished ones are in. Here's the link:
http://ut2004.titaninternet.co.uk/forum ... php?t=9276
Now, to your questions. For the first one I can clearly say that there have been / still are numerous ONSPlus version mismatches between the various 32 player ONS servers out there right now. I know Omnipotent is running a different one than you as if you try to join one server from the other without dropping back to the main menu (or even restarting the game sometimes) you'lll get the mismatch. Not sure what you can do about this to get everyone on the same page really. Some polite requests to the other admins to keep everyone on the latest version might be worth a try. A.S.S. might be running a different one as well, even if not I know Titan is given it was made there and they'll always have the latest. It's a bit of a mess from a player standpoint at the moment frankly.
As for the 3 pts needed for a map victory item, that is debatable both ways but it couldn't hurt to try. My only concern with doing that is with 3 pt wins you need to keep the round lengths somewhat smaller. Maximum of 12 minute rounds I would say and even 10 wouldn't be out of the question. Going with 15 min rounds means you have a max game time of over an hour and 15 minutes per map which is way too long for me. 10 min rounds drops that figure down under an hour at max which is a lot more tolerable. Might also want to tweak upward your core drain settings - make it drain faster once OT is reached so you don't get 5 min + OTs which can certainly drag on. My view - try it but be prepared to revert back or tweak heavily if it doesn't go over well. I think it could work but every server/player base is unique so only active playtesting will tell you for sure one way or the other.
This quote by the way:
demonstrates a problem that is a function of player voting habits and available map choices that can be altered to a degree if you want to do so. More on that shortly...People always leave after a map, and people always flock to populated servers. If you have three short ones in a row, it can clear a server really fast.
Hmm, ok so you are also wondering about this:
With all due respect, you already run quite a few maps that are... not good... and the server still fills up quite nicely on them after tons of people vote for them. That leads me to a truism that took a long and painful time for it to really sink in for me: a large percentage of players are idiots who have no idea what makes for a good game or a good map. If I've learned anything from admining servers and playing on many others after all these years of online competitive gaming it is that your players will pick the worst possible maps/game options if given the choice. Most people seriously have no conception of how a game should "flow" I susppose is the best way to put it. It's sad really as people have gotten locked in to a mindset of how a game is played after the default maps that shipped with the game convinced people that THAT is how the game should be no matter what. And after three years of default maps on default servers and custom maps that follow the default pattern blindly, many are unwilling or unable to see how things can and are better when done differently and indeed should be done differently when dealing with the high player counts you're running here.The only difference I see is that they are running some maps that I thought were no good because they are either too small, or just plain suck. Is just having different maps, even though they appear to be crap, important?
You can restrict or at least limit some of those bad choices in a non-obvious fashion by the maps you choose to have available for your players. Specific to your ONS server, a map that was tweaked and crafted to support 32 player ONS games is unlikey to be a bad map for the simple reason that the testing process was done by people who have experience in what works for that type of gameplay. A single map author working in the dark as it were on his vision of what a map should be with no critiques or suggestions from actual players is highly unlikely to get a map just right on the first try for this level of play. And small seemingly insignificant "artistic liscense" type details can have huge gameplay consequences when you have 32 human players going at it online on your map looking for any potential flaw or advantage so that they can win the game.
Anyways, to get back to your question - what is the real answer to this problem of fluctuating player counts in the end? I'm not sure there is one frankly - and even if there is I certainly don't have this magic bullet that would fix that issue and make everything looking like roses. If I did my server wouldn't have died the painful slow death of low use that dwindles into non-use even after I spent countless hours tweaking and testing the map rotations, vote and network settings and so on just to get it so people would have a good game. What happened? They cry about lag that doesn't exist on the server end, badmouth the maps, the settings, my mother, etc. and leave. Sigh, that's the way it goes I guess. (This wasn't the complete reason it was pulled but it didn't help mind you).
I'm not trying to depress you Toxic (although I may be doing that - sorry if so), I like yourself am just starting to see the same thing happen here that I've seen take hold personally and on other servers I've been active on. UT2004 is an older game that never was as popular as it could have been. The reasons for that fact could and have been debated endlessly but the fact remains that the game doesn't have massive amounts of players still active with it so it can be bleeding players who get fed up with the game an aberation like Counterstrike can.
One thing I have seen at least slow the decay for clan servers is to get and keep your clan active in the game. I don't know how many members you have but you need to keep a good percentage of them active on any given night on your servers to keep them populated. Clan players look to other clan players in quantity on any server as a good pickup game waiting to happen and more numbers will obviously draw in the casual player. If you can't get them to be more active, send out feelers to other clans to ask them to stop on by, advertise on some of the clan/pro forums perhaps. I suspect that the DW server may have something of a... hmm let's say "general public" rep to it by now in certain circles so that course of action may prove fruitless or at least somewhat difficult just so you know.
Tangental to the above you might try to more actively promote the forums and the DW community in general you've got going here as something worthy of getting involved in as player involvment will always generate interest and loyalty to a server even if some of the details of how things are run or settings/maps used don't appeal to some. Try something like the in-game announce messages mutator (or is that what you've got going? might be but add/tweak it if so) to talk up the community more or perhaps offer gameplay tips and suggestions like the A.S.S. server does I think. Anything that gets players to be drawn into your sphere of influence so that they're kept an active part of your player base is a good thing to promote.
I'm reserving judgement until full release and player reviews quite honestly. Epic screwed the pooch big time with 2k3 and I haven't forgotten in the least. I used to live and breathe CTF and I haven't touched it ever since the original UT because of how Epic messed it up so badly. We shall see, we shall see...(Can't wait for 2k7)
Anyways, just some rambling thoughts for your reading amusment...
EDIT -> This should probably have been private for Toxic only now that I look back on some of what I wrote but... meh it's out there now I guess. Feel free to delete if you wish to take or keep this private for any reason Toxic.
Hey Urtho, thanks for your ramblings. :bounce:
All of these just gives me a different but "oh so real" perspective on the hard work Toxic puts on all of his servers. I am, and certainly many others are too, really thankful for all the fun gameplay and superb community that surround his efforts.
I'm fairly new to this game and don't really know how everything has evolved from the original UT, but I have never been so highly entertained by an online game in such a short period of time since my golden years playing GPL or the old CS.
Knowing that you also had a server gives me somewhat peace of mind, since you are able to provide all these feedback to Toxic in such an objective way, and also by not feeling as bad myself when you kick my arse on any given match. :blackeye:
In any case I personally appreciate your comments, and hope for Toxic not to take them the wrong way. Im sure that the DW:SV community is here to stay for a longer while. :cheers:
Regards,
All of these just gives me a different but "oh so real" perspective on the hard work Toxic puts on all of his servers. I am, and certainly many others are too, really thankful for all the fun gameplay and superb community that surround his efforts.
I'm fairly new to this game and don't really know how everything has evolved from the original UT, but I have never been so highly entertained by an online game in such a short period of time since my golden years playing GPL or the old CS.
Knowing that you also had a server gives me somewhat peace of mind, since you are able to provide all these feedback to Toxic in such an objective way, and also by not feeling as bad myself when you kick my arse on any given match. :blackeye:
In any case I personally appreciate your comments, and hope for Toxic not to take them the wrong way. Im sure that the DW:SV community is here to stay for a longer while. :cheers:
Regards,
Cams.
Former NARC Crew.
Brabham Driver fo Life!
Former NARC Crew.
Brabham Driver fo Life!